Short introduction to the topic by Mazin:
All observers know that there has been significant changes in the political, cultural and economic landscape that are forcing a reexamination of assumptions about peaceful outcomes. For example, there are now 500,000 Israeli Jewish settlers in the areas Israel occupied in 1967. Those areas represent about 20% of historic Palestine and these are the same areas envisioned to be the future Palestinian state. There is thus a revival of the consideration of a one state outcome (whether a binational state, a confederation, or a secular democratic state for all its people). The forum is interested in a respectful discussion of the merits of these outcomes (some may call solutions but others disagree with the terminology which implies that there visions are mere solutions to manufactured problems). We urge you to focus discussion on just and peaceful outcomes and we will remove postings which suggest perpetual conflicts as inevitable or that denigrade religions or ethnicities. In your comments please focus on the issues (which are political) and not the persons and try to understand different perspectives. You may start by referring to these questions or as you like, please be aware to group guidelines and help us maintain productive and dignified discussion.

Why do you think people can or can't exist in a unitary state of all people regardless of their religion? What do you think is the biggest obstacle to getting people to recognize the inherent dignity and equality of all other people?

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Dear all,
First I would like to thank Roni because he invited me to join this site
Well, when we talk about two states we need to know something more than important
state or land are not so important more than to accept the other as the one who has the right to live we must first to live inside selves of each other I have to accept you as neighbor who has the right to live in Peace and in all your rights without control you. We have to act justly and establish justice.
If all of us agree and believe in this way it will not be a problem and we can establish two states but in other hand if you always deal to me as foreigner and stranger in this world it will never be solved.
so that let us respect each other, let us accept each other , let us give the rights and exchange them between us.
Thanks
Mo'min
Hi Mo'min.
So I have a question based on what you wrote.

"We have to act justly and establish justice. If all of us agree and believe in this way it will not be a problem..."

Right. That has to be true both for any solution to work, doesn't it?
So how is that an argument for or against either a one- or two-state format?
http://translate.google.com/translate_t# provided this this translation of what rafat wrote:

Khaleeny be the first response in Arabic and his Atorgomo ...

I am of the opinion that if a (solution) per bi-national state must take Baaattabar that the demographic distribution of the two peoples must division of natural resources also!!

One state solution must include a fair distribution of natural resources without consideration of religion or race, this is what I think it is difficult to occur as long as the mentality of power in Almitrish both sides adhere to nationalism. And religion

I am of the opinion that to look forward and work seriously to lift the injustice caused on the ground before discussing matters that the permanent solution!

The most important things to be considered the separation wall which is the biggest threat to peace in the region

All due respect to you
Hi,

I read what people wrote here, I was hoping I will see more Palestinians expressing themselves on this topic, and I also have some comments:
I think we need to distinguish the discussion between the questions if one state solution is good solution in general, and the other aspect will it solve the current conflict, and the comments I saw here some how mix the two.

I spoke to some Palestinians friends about this issue, I think the main motive behind the new trend in Palestinian society to talk and even seek one state solution is not the acknowledgment that nationalism is a value of the past (or the west), but the simple yet very true and sad fact, that the size of the piece of the pie left for them to determine themselves is shrinking rapidly. I think Mazin is an exception in his views, none of the people I talked to was willing to give up his identity (and you do give up some if it in one state solution). If such solution will be offered to Israelis, they will have the same understanding, i.e. 'they talk about one state solution just to get control from the inside'.
My political views are obvious and I am in favor of Palestinian state in the borders of 67, so I am definitely in favor of fair compromise over land.
More than that I see many examples now of one state solution where the tension between the parties is so strong, that only strong foundation, long tradition of democracy, tolerance and stable state will ensure the structure does not explode, see Belgium and even Canada in a way, and other places, and of course we saw the cases where it did not last and just came a part, like Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.
So I believe that if one day there will be a one single state here, it will be only after two states lived together, one beside the other, and only when peace existed for enough time for people not to consider violence again, and only if the two states came to the conclusion that is it better to create some confederation, and it will be probably a gradual process (like stepping into hot bath)

On the other hand I totally agree (although it is Hypothetical now) that Judaism flourished and was at its best when we were minorities in other countries. I still think and hope that we can regain our position as a nation with humanitarian values if we cease to be occupier as you cannot have both, meaning having full democracy and moral values for yourself and still deprive others from their rights. Even if we are back to 67 borders we still have the issue of the Arab minority within Israel, and they also should have equal rights, but first the Palestinian state should be established, they should gain their self determination and pride, it will be good for us in Israel even more than for them.

On same approach which one day might change, I myself see more in common with people in region than with members of my ethnic group who live elsewhere, I am Israeli more than I am a Jew, and I hope we can regroup ourselves in future not according to nations and ethnic groups but according to location and common interest, but we have to crawl and walk before we run, let's have peace first.
Please let me guide you to this nuanced and practical look at the question posed by this group. Here is the article:

"The Refugees, Palestinians, and Israel"

Dr. Gopin is a professor of Conflict Resolution and also the chair of the Center for World Religions, Diplomacy, and Conflict Resolution at George Mason University in Arlington, VA (USA).

What do you think?
I was hesitating to post my answer, as it might be not relevant.
It is absurd to discuss any solution within the maintaining political system based on power and lobby. The fight for hierarchical leadership make persons to "evil" to occupy power positions. No one can win without corruption and propaganda.
The lack for peace is not because one side is good and the other is evil, it is only because all choices people has to take was based on getting the enough power to apply them and not because they had the best choices.
Jews needed Zionism to protect themselves from anti-Semitism (tracked in power)
Britain had the power to make politics with Palestine.
Palestinian reaction based on applying violence against occupation makes sense in the power-equation
etc.

Today Israel has the power to manipulate people to protect its politics. Same apply to Iran, Hisbullah, ..
PA has the authority to keep negotiating and protect the interests of Ramallah-Lobbyists ..
The strong get stronger and the poor and week becomes more dependent on the system ..

Formal "peace"-seeker are using the "matrix" created politics and power-equation, which is not working. The system has created issues can not fix them! Every engineer know this.

Any solution can be discussed after we revolutionary reform our understanding for "democracy" and "representation"!

Today we can think about alternative enhanced smart web-tools of co-creating decisions and governance environment toward radical shift/transformation of our understanding for our value-system. All the prediction says that the shape of new human civilisation is more near than before.

The question who will do the right action plans!?
The theory I am working on says: Palestinians!

Once I am finished with the first draft I will let you know.

PS: I love the work of John Ringland of exploring the foundations of the new civilisation
David Bradon's
there is sure thousands .. but this direction we have to explore to think about solutions.
There will be no solutions if we do not have the environment to co-create them. Sorry if I have disappointed any one.
This is not disappointing at all to me, Wael.
It is actually an extremely encouraging post.
I agree with you about the potential in the Palestinian people right now.

Just keep in mind, and this is what I wanted to chat with you about when you get some time - the Palestinians are the most like the Israelis of all the Arabic speaking peoples. (The parallels are striking, if for another place.)
Our best possible future action plan is together!

Before the Palestinian state is established, the iron is hot, and the opportunity exists to channel
your energies in the most productive direction possible.
After the state is developed, and starts ossifying around the established and pre-existing power structures,
it becomes much more difficult to improve things that are noticed to be working improperly or inefficiently.
(Israelis can testify to that. Heck, so can Americans.)

That said, I'm very much looking forward to reading your paper (in English, I hope).
Dear Yigal
Do you suggest that the Muslems, the Chritians and the Jews, or the Arabs and the Hebrews in our region, can all become one nation? That this is what we should strive for? Or that we can and should establish a bi-national state? Or what? Please forgive me if you already answered these questions elsewhere.

I would also appreciate it if other contributors to this discussion who support the one-state sollution would clarify if they mean a bi-national state, or a uni-national one, or a state that is indifferent to nationahood (a nationless state), or what?

Allow me to add that the confusion in this area is great, not least because of the untruths spread by some peace leaders in Israel, no less. These untruths are found also in high-school and university text-books. For example, they say that a nation state is one in which there are national minorities (the truth is that in nation states there are ethnic and religious minorities, but they are all included in the nation); that Israel is a nation state like many others (the truth is that there is no country in the world that declares that it belongs to a state that includes only a part of its own population, and a great many others who in truth belong to other nations in other countries); and that those democratic countries in which there are no national minorities this is because there is no nation to begin with (the trut is that in those countries nationality is distinguished from religion and ethnicity). All this pollutes the entire discussion endlessly and needlessly, and completely obliterates the very notion of the liberal civic nation-state, which is what almost all Western democracies are, and Israel is most definitely not.
Any response to these notions will be welcomed.
Thankfully,
And happy yom Kipur to us all,
Chen.
Hi Chen,

I'm not sure what label you'd prefer to attach to what I am suggesting,
and I'm not sure the label matters that much.
Ths substance of what I think should happen is for there to be a Federal structure above
two state-entities. As the US has 50 states, Israel + Palestine would have at least two (unless someone can also set up the 'Druzistan,' in which case 3). There is significant latitude for each state to make its own laws. In Nevada, for example, prostitution is legal and marijuana is illegal. In Alaska, marijuana is essentially legal and prostitution is illegal. In New York, it's illegal to drive while talking on a cell-phone. In Florida, it is legal and everyone does it. So, in Bnei Brak, they can still close the streets on shabbat, but in Ramallah, or even Tel Aviv, they should not have to.

Each state entity should keep its character, as far as that can be reconciled with the Federal requirements. Israel could continue having Arabic on most of its roadsigns, but the Federal government (meaning both sides) would have to defend the right of Israelis to go to area A places, even the Har HaBayit and Joseph's Tomb, and with no preference for Muslims at the Ma'arat HaMachpelah either. Arabs too would be free to go anywhere, which will require a tremendous effort by the PA side of the federal government to prevent breaches of the peace. Both sides would probably require massive publicity campaigns to educate their publics on the benefits of diversity and Federal rules of peaceful coexistence.

But at the end of the day, there would be huge benefits.
And to be worth doing, there must be huge benefits - such as being free to move about within a much larger area in safety, and real equality not only from Israelis to Palestinians but also from Palestinians to Israelis.
If those two things cannot be obtained, I'd say never mind - take your chances with a straightforward two-state structure, no matter ghow ugly and inconvenient that would have to be.

[End of answer.]

I am interested to know why you say Israel is definitely not a liberal civic nation state.
What is your definition of a liberal civic nation state?
Dear Yigal
You raise some important issues, each of which deserves full attention - but then my own message will be too long for the present format. so I beg your forgiveness for addressing only the point about nationality, and hope that we will have opportunity to return to others later.

First: it saddens me deeply that you think I am talking about mere labels. Despite the fact that there are 50 states in the united states, the people in all these states comprise one nation under God. This is a label, but it is not merely that. This nation is civic and liberal.

You ask, yigal, about my definition of a liberal civic nation state: I find this question embarassing, since I never claimed to have a definition of my own, but I use the term in the generally accepted sense as I understand it. it is this: a civic nation state is a state that belongs to a civic nation, i.e., a nation that is defined according to citizenship: it is thus also formal, but not merely that. Many in Israel eiother deny that there is an American (meaning USA) nation or they say that it is a mere formality: mere! It never ceases to amaze me how easilly we can be blind to things that do not fit with our views. Civic nationality is also liberal, since it is indifferent to other affiliations, mainly to religion and ethnicity.

Almost all Western democracies are liberal/civic nation states. Israel, in contrast, defines nationality according to religion: thus it recognizes All Jews as belonging to one religion-nation, thus does not recognize, for example, the American nationality of American Jews, just as it does not recognize the Israeli nationality of Israeli Jews and of Israeli non-Jews alike. This is known in literature as ethnic or religious or tribal or holistic nationalism, but it is a uique kind of such nationalism: like all ethnic nations, it too excludes large portion of the citizenry (all Israeli non-Jews) from the nation, but it also portends to include a large number of people from outside the country (all non-Israeli Jews) in it.

Ethnic nationalism is at the root of some - perhaps most - of the atrocities the world has known in the last hundred years. Civic/liberal nationalism is the only anti-dote extant. it is far from perfect, and unsatisfactory on many counts, yet it is the only anti-dote. That peace lovers and activists ignore all this turns them - unwittingly, you might want to add - to the accomplices of war mongrels. This, I believe, is the explanation as to why the peace camp, despite being so huge, so enthusiastic, so moved and so motivated, is, in effect, impotent. We need to start talking about these issues before it is too late - indeed, if it is not too late already.

Best, and forgive me for the length
Chen
Hi Chen,
Ok. If you do not have a definition of civic nationalism, I don't think your explanation of why you think Israel is not one is either fair or sufficient.
You are not obliged to say it is not one, after all.

Perhaps we have different definitions of nationalism, because, to me, if 74% of Arab Israelis do not want to be part of the Palestinian state, that demonstrates to me a degree of Israeli nationalism among them. And the facts that there are Arabs in the Knesset, and in so many walks of Israeli life, and Arabic on the roadsigns, and that half of the patients at Ein Kerem hospital are Arabs; do not support the contention that Israel sees them as wholly distinct from the Israeli "nation" either.
But if a nation is "defined according to citizenship," there are non-Jewish citizens in Israel.

To me, ethnic nationalism is not the only reason for either why the peace camp is as impotent as it is, or for the atrocities and lack of peace.
Muslim religious extremism, which is not national but supra-national, must also be accounted for.
Actually I agree with you that the underlying issue is power. People who don't have power are desperate for power, those that do have it don't even know they have it yet aren't willing to give any to those who don't have it.

But what you are suggesting is to change both Palestinian and Israeli societies. How can this be done considering people don't like change? It is easier for a powerless society (Palestinian) to be willing because nothing they do seems to get them power so they have an incentive. How would this work and what would be the incentive for Israelis?

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