First topic - one state Vs two states solution

Short introduction to the topic by Mazin:
All observers know that there has been significant changes in the political, cultural and economic landscape that are forcing a reexamination of assumptions about peaceful outcomes. For example, there are now 500,000 Israeli Jewish settlers in the areas Israel occupied in 1967. Those areas represent about 20% of historic Palestine and these are the same areas envisioned to be the future Palestinian state. There is thus a revival of the consideration of a one state outcome (whether a binational state, a confederation, or a secular democratic state for all its people). The forum is interested in a respectful discussion of the merits of these outcomes (some may call solutions but others disagree with the terminology which implies that there visions are mere solutions to manufactured problems). We urge you to focus discussion on just and peaceful outcomes and we will remove postings which suggest perpetual conflicts as inevitable or that denigrade religions or ethnicities. In your comments please focus on the issues (which are political) and not the persons and try to understand different perspectives. You may start by referring to these questions or as you like, please be aware to group guidelines and help us maintain productive and dignified discussion.

Why do you think people can or can't exist in a unitary state of all people regardless of their religion? What do you think is the biggest obstacle to getting people to recognize the inherent dignity and equality of all other people?

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Permalink Reply by Wael on October 10, 2008 at 9:50am

The era of power we came through has damaged us psychologically! Any try to change using the system is power is useless. Thats why I do not engage in formal traditional politics.
If you look around you will find many similar symptoms as the sicknesses the system of power (global consciousness). Check: http://www.anandavala.info/GaianEgo/anatomy-of-global-systemic-cris...

I as was discussing the other day on GBA-community something I called natural discipline. I have just checked and found useful entries like: NATURAL CONSEQUENCES = NATURAL DISCIPLINE , http://www.thehealingbridge.org/writings/discipline.html , ..

Now the question is if those has discovered we are trapped in a sick world are ready to develop transformation solution and common alternatives based on natural discipline so that people do not like change figure out them self the way and new choices.
I will give you one example: Many of people do not have discipline to read book and improve their intellect, or to go to lectures, or have the awareness to improve their societies, but they would be ready to spend 30-60 min watching a high professional animation film done by the conscious global-intelligence about a certain topic.
When I think about such a film, I think about integrating
A: thousands of researches to a certain topic (content)
B: Transformation psychological language
C: Up-to-date technology of graphics and animations.

All efforts done for change did not met yet this high complexity and synergy because we do not have the tools for it yet. But it is a matter of time till we have improved intelligence application based on global integral synergy.

Permalink Reply by Ernest Lopez on October 7, 2008 at 10:09pm

What do we have to work with? One semitic race, believers in One Supreme Being. How can we not see a this small geographic area not united when the world is going through labor pains to become one as well. When we discard the small differences that separate us we will become able to see the large issues that make us one people. It is not religion or race that is the obstacle. It is the unwillingness, for the love our children and their safe future, to set aside the unimportant for the important cultural strengths that will enable us to live in Peace and Brotherhood. Our distorted vision causes us to set aside our humanity (which we hold in common with all peoples) and identify ourselves with ideologies of all sorts. But we are first MAN, then white, brown, black,yellow; and European, African, Asian, American...and so on. Join the family of Man and work for harmony towards peace with those of us who arise to sustain a spiritual and noble effort. Shalom, your Pima brother, ernie

Permalink Reply by Mazin Qumsiyeh on October 8, 2008 at 10:34pm

Dear Ernest:

I fully agree with you. The world is moving away from nationalism to globalism. Europe which invented the concept of nation state is slowly but surely dismantling it. We should not be the last to get it. We shoudl have been the first. We should have become "a light unto the peoples".

Permalink Reply by Mazin Qumsiyeh on October 8, 2008 at 9:45pm

Here is an article that Shamai Leibowitz and I wrote and published on the subject with the note from Shamai

Dear Friends,
I invite you to read my article about coexistence in a secular state published in commondreams.org and I welcome your comments.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/07-6
Don't misconstrue this article to mean that I don't support practical moves to end the occupation and establish a Palestinian state. Our article lays out a vision and articulates why that vision is a worthy and attainable goal, but I can definitely understand those who contend that a secular homeland for both people can only materialize after the establishment of 2 separate states or 2 states in a federalized structure.
I wish you and your families a Gmar Hatima Tova and, if you are fasting, a Zom Kal.
Shamai

Permalink Reply by Mazin Qumsiyeh on October 8, 2008 at 9:45pm

and here are comments from Henry Lowi that might also be relevant

You and Mazin make some good and strong points, for which I thank you. Especially the points about common homeland, and about a secular state needed to protect everyone's freedom of religion. The weakness, of course, is your continued identification of "Israel" the state with "Israel" the land and "Israel" the people. The distinction has to be made most sharply In order for Israel the people to have any future in Israel the land, Israel the state will have to be demolished, overthrown, with none of its distinctive (i.e. racist, militarist, oppressive) features remaining. "Transformed" distorts the task at hand.

So, while I welcome oppressed Palestinians proclaiming the goal of secular democracy as the framework for coexistence, I insist that peace-seeking Israelis identify the Israeli state as the hurdle to be challenged and defeated.

By the way, that is also the reason why those who say: "First 2 states; then One" are lying or misunderstanding. They are repeating the catastrophic "error" of 1947. I say: First the lsraeli state (or the "Jewish state" or the "Zionist state") must be removed from the equation; then the people will be able to choose the state forms of coexistence and peace.

Gmar Hatima Tova and Tzom Kal,

Henry Lowi

Permalink Reply by chen yehezkely on October 9, 2008 at 12:08am

Dear Mazin
I have read the paper to which you referred us. allow me to refer you to my own input above, in response to Yigal D. Kahana, which addresses the exact same issue. Your paper seems to raise the question: what is stopping us? I suggest the answer: ethnic nationalism, both Jewis and Arab.
Kind regards
Chen

Permalink Reply by Wael on October 9, 2008 at 10:07am

Chen,
agree; the spirit of traditional political speech is based of "ethnic nationalism" as a respond to any "ethnic nationalism" !
Palestinian as people has been always a nation lived with nations and civilisations came to live/occupy/control/.. "Palestine"! Actually we do not have our rooted ethnic nationalism, which grow only beginning of 20th-century.

The analysis attached shows how nationalism is often a creation of threatened cultural identity.
My critic about the paper: It does not say Palestinian society simple and innocent- it does not creates a dynamic of good vs. evil, innocent vs aggressor which is not helpful in resolving the issues. Also, viewing our-self as powerless, creates a self-fulfilling prophecy where your thoughts and actions will guarantee that you remain powerless. My major focus is review own self and be self-criticism to influence the reality of others. I do not like till the "other side" changed it self to change my self.

One remark: The paper attached is not written by a Palestinian or Israeli ! We do not need the Western paternalistic black and white way of viewing the world- there is a good and a bad. If we keep this niche we will get the same results of aggression. Any way:
There is no good or evil, only choices and consequences. (David Braden)
So it looks we still do not have the best choices.
So need co-creation spirit of communal society where no one can be excluded. To do this thinker from both sides should identify our strength and weakness, our mistakes and opportunities > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT
which would help much better.

Permalink Reply by chen yehezkely on October 9, 2008 at 3:04pm

Dear Wael
thanks for the imput. Of course, the idea of SWOT (the link to which you attached above) is obviously true: It is always a good idea to inquire about the Strengths, the Weaknesses, the Opportunities, and the Threats that our project involves. I hope it is equally obvious that this is what I have been trying to do myself.
Best
Chen

Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on October 9, 2008 at 1:45am

Hi Mazin,
This is a very good article, overall.
I would like to answer one question that it asks, though.

It askes:
"Why has the State of Israel viewed the Palestinians' different religions as a reason to treat them as strangers and enemies?"

Let's be honest.
(Not to even get into Hamas doctrine that defines Israel as an enemy to be destroyed)
In 1968 Fatah published a statement syaing that it supports the fundamental Islamic position regarding tolerating Jews as long as they accept their status as a subordinated minority.

So I must suggest that it is not the fact of the Palestinians' different religions that is and was the primary reason that Israelis and pre-Israeli yishuv members treated them as strangers and enemies. That was because too many Arab leaders and individuals themselves saw and treated the Jews as their enemies first.

Let me bring you this quote:
"Issa Jaber, director of the local department of education for the past seven years, feels the personal relationships created with Zionist leaders during the prestate period set the basis for later cooperation. “We had a perspective for the future,” he says. The Globe and Mail quotes a 2006 article in the (Vancouver) Jewish Independent that states:
In 1948, when the modern state of Israel became a corporeal reality, many Arab villages were abandoned or destroyed in the ensuing War of Independence. Abu Ghosh was the only one in the area to survive intact and untouched.
"That was because the people in Abu Ghosh have always attached great importance to being hospitable," said Mayor Salim Jaber. "We welcome anybody, regardless of religion or race."

And perhaps that helps explain why the ressidents of Abu Ghosh are doing relatively well today;
meaning, the Israeli govt. and society did not treat them as enemies or strangers, because they didn't treat the Jews as strangers and enemies.

Just a thought.

Permalink Reply by Mohamad sh. on October 9, 2008 at 1:45am

Ladies and getlmen,
Dear renee, thanks so much for invitingme to join the group here,everyone of us has his/her own thinking about what is going on between palestinians and israeli's, but seems most of none-palestinians or israeli jew do not really now the real problem here between the two people, i have participated not less than a thousand workshops and conferances regarding this main topic, some poeple think when they talk about palestiians they just talk about those who live in the west-bank and gaza strip, and ignore those inside israel with israeli ID card, some people talk about those who live inside israel and for them all this conflict is between them and jw and just ignore the poeple lives in the occupied lands of 1967, some think there is no issue called Jerusalem, for others seems this conflict is between jew and saudia arabia coz of alqsa mosque , it is more complicated that that, even when we meet with jew who never been to the west-bank they just simply say we dont now anything about it, either if they pretend or just they dont have much information about it for me the same .Solutions, since years back we all talking about solutions, but how can we reach any of these different solutions or agreements if israel still building more settlments, and by building more settlments means theywill say as they saying these days how can we leave , where to go, we have no more place, who would pay us back the money that we invested in the settlmenst in 1967 borders, and lots of excuses, easy and simple solution, just leave the 67 part , and go back to ur part as state of israel, this is what i think and most of the palestinians think, and when i say most i mean around 70% of us, no one state solution, we cant live together even if we want peace and believe in peace, our both history is still wet of our two sides blood, we dont wanna keep killing ach other, we want to be nieghbours better than living in one place, we dont want this revange to keep going on and on, the only way is to live one next to the other, this is the best fr our next generation, and better for us to live and feel peace before each of us end will come. Well racis people in both sides, fanatic groups in both side, killing the same, revange the same, hate the same, no acceptance the same, no understaing the same, all the same then we dont we have two states also the same and live in peace and good nieghbourhod.
wish you al the best and peace.
mohammad

Permalink Reply by Roni Segoly on October 9, 2008 at 7:16pm