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David Califa said:I really don't think that anything interesting will come out of the thread. Why am I coming back to it?
I think that that's the last visit
I retract. I did come back. and I did find interest. It was silly to think that the thread has run its course.
Very often, and even in the Middle East, sometimes wolves are wolves.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Matthew 17:5
Neri Bar-On said:Trust, refreshing trust, intuitive trust, authentic trust is needed between us, and all of us need to cooperatively unconditionally develop it here among us. it cannot be one sided nor it can be conditional, because this is the essence of trust
We need trust and recognize we are all within this one Rúach we are one,
Neri, peace is a very nice word. But it has to have content behind it, and telling people to give "unconditional" trust is insane. You see, you and I have children, and were we to tell them "you can trust anyone because we are all human and we all want the same things" will be very dangerous for them. Most of the very harmful people like paedophiles, pushers, pimps, etc., will say all kinds of things to break down the natural defense that people have to those who they don't know. They will say, "trust me", of course.
And, they will be smooth and convincing.
In the Middle East, how long have Israelis told Palestinians what is best for them? Since the beginning. They are supposed to trust that there will be no land grab, that they will respect international law, etc. They have again and again proven that they cannot be trusted.
Breaking down the resistance is not contributing to peace, but it certainly assures that Israel always has the balance of power.
You really have to learn the difference between peaceful coexistence in full respect, and a sort of enforced peace through telling Palestinians that they have to be nice and stop bothering you kind Israelis so much.
Please refrain from telling me what is useful or not for creating peace. I don't think you have the ability to know this, to be very frank.
I know you said "sadly, we have to realise that we have to give up seeking justice". Yes, you said this. It is funny, because if you had a child murdered or your home destroyed or taken, I wonder if you would think such a thought. In fact, you would be extremely determined that there be justice, so that vendetta could be avoided and you could be compensated in some small way for the losses you endured. I know many Palestinians, most of them writers, and the emphasis on justice is paramount. They state what their people need. Why not begin to accept that your telling people it's a lost cause and instead to work on "peace" is going to be interpreted by them as you flipping the bird at their needs and basic requirements, while YOURS are guaranteed, so of course, it's no problem for you to preach.
Of course I can't work with you, because we have an entirely different agenda! You want normalisation without any reasonable sacrifice and change on Israel's part, and I insist that resistance is the only way. The only thing Israel understands is when life gets complicated for them, and they want Palestinians to be so tired out and downtrodden that they will surrender to the second class or worse status just to get some years of peace. The Israelis can't tell Palestinians what to do, although they are convinced that they can!
I don't want ANYONE here to follow me! I am not a prophet, I am just a person who speaks my mind based on decades of activism, almost three of them, and along the road I have met and lost many, and that is how it is! I ain't looking for acolytes! I only expect people to think for themselves and to analyse scrupulously every argument they see, especially the most seductively deceptive and abstract ones.
You are there to protect your personal interests, and maybe some other things. Interests are of course at times valid, but they are not the primary metre of judgment for others. We have to be rational and objective. I have seen you justify Zionist crimes too often to think you are one to give advice to Palestinians and Palestine advocates.
Look Neri,
I kind of think you don't even know what you say. To suggest, for instance, that you would not trust my son in your hands, doesn't that imply at some level that I have given some indication that children are not safe with me? I mean, this is merely one example of how it is impossible to have a linear discussion with you. You talking trust in an abstract way, and I say it is human nature to be wary of those who say "trust me", and give an example of those who harm our children the most. Not referring to you or me or anyone, but an example... What do you do? You in some manner insert into a discourse that I would be dangerous to your son, when I haven't given any indication that I am any such thing. So, you can trust those who say trust me and who you have no idea about, but then again YOU are making statements as if you wouldn't even trust me with your son. I promise I will never take him to the movies or babysit him, but this comment just struck me as mean and contradicting what you claim to be the NEED for humans, unconditional trust.
At this point, I withdraw from these useless conversations, and I wish you luck with trying to get across your point in a way that makes some sense and is relevant.
Neri Bar-On said:Dear Mary,
This discussion emphasis is on different prespective people have.
From different perspective, people conclude the image of reality and when their image of reality tells them that there are Wolves, its hard to show them that these are Humans unless you invite them to look through other perspective too.
This post and its discussion are real live expression of the conflict that arise from different perspective. I propose here the perspective of integral reality where even the people who are in Sheep clothing and can be seen as in Wolf clothing are born naked as human and share the same human experience from different perspective. I argue that any Peace need to include us all with all our perspectives.
mary rizzo said:Please refrain from telling me what is useful or not for creating peace. I don't think you have the ability to know this, to be very frank.
I know you said "sadly, we have to realise that we have to give up seeking justice". Yes, you said this. It is funny, because if you had a child murdered or your home destroyed or taken, I wonder if you would think such a thought. In fact, you would be extremely determined that there be justice, so that vendetta could be avoided and you could be compensated in some small way for the losses you endured. I know many Palestinians, most of them writers, and the emphasis on justice is paramount. They state what their people need. Why not begin to accept that your telling people it's a lost cause and instead to work on "peace" is going to be interpreted by them as you flipping the bird at their needs and basic requirements, while YOURS are guaranteed, so of course, it's no problem for you to preach.
Of course I can't work with you, because we have an entirely different agenda! You want normalisation without any reasonable sacrifice and change on Israel's part, and I insist that resistance is the only way. The only thing Israel understands is when life gets complicated for them, and they want Palestinians to be so tired out and downtrodden that they will surrender to the second class or worse status just to get some years of peace. The Israelis can't tell Palestinians what to do, although they are convinced that they can!
I don't want ANYONE here to follow me! I am not a prophet, I am just a person who speaks my mind based on decades of activism, almost three of them, and along the road I have met and lost many, and that is how it is! I ain't looking for acolytes! I only expect people to think for themselves and to analyse scrupulously every argument they see, especially the most seductively deceptive and abstract ones.
You are there to protect your personal interests, and maybe some other things. Interests are of course at times valid, but they are not the primary metre of judgment for others. We have to be rational and objective. I have seen you justify Zionist crimes too often to think you are one to give advice to Palestinians and Palestine advocates.
I think with this discussion we are once more witnessing the importance of face for the people of the Middle East, both the fear of losing face and the reaction to losing face. I feel I am having some control over situations simply by watching them but I realise this is also often not enough. I am finding this peace business a touch difficult to handle. I feel rather helpless. I am however encouraged by the enthusiasm for peace coming from you good people.
palestine
iman hijjo
gaza
westren bank
what do think about every day someone killed by Israel
but the Palestine still have good lovely wonderful people no one can be like palestine
im palestine
im palestine
im palestine
im palestine
im palestine
im palestine
salam alekom
The Dalai Lama says that it is very important to not confuse the Action with the Actor.We most oppose wrong action but if we become overwhelmed with hatred for the Actor we act only in the short term and become paralyzed.
How to keep our eyes wide open, our hearts wide open, and not become overwhelmed with the very real horror that many of our fellow beings are living is the first question. Many turn away. How do we include those who would kill us? But the Table of Peace can not just include those with who we agree.
I recieved a letter on the first day I joined this site from a man in Gaza who h ad just been held at a check point for 4 hours.he asked what I had done today to end this terrible occupation. I had to tell him I had done no direct action.
My life is very difficult at the moment. But I try to ground each day in Gratitude. I do not frame my day around where I can find fresh water. Many in this world are risking rape and murder to just obtain water to live.
As a Registered Nurse for many years, I do know the first hand reality of senseless violent death and pain. I have been covered in blood. I have cared for tortured children. But a recent reminder of the limitations of my experience living in the US was when, on the Fourth of July, I heard and daw fireworks. I assumed they were fireworks, I did not react with the fear of those who live in places where such sounds mean death. Years ago, a Vietnamese friend of mine dove screaming, trying to protect her children at the same sounds.
We walk in many different worlds, but we are all connected. We must try not to strike at those who would be our allies. Guilt and shame will only cause people to close. I often want to run screaming in the street, sreaming for the dead and the dying. But that would only help release my personal pain and not help them.
Below I offer you a poem I wrote last year. It talks of despair, but I hope helps to connect us so we can all coninue, enlarged, to change this world.
Bless
Chenae
Iraq Forecast Recalled
Tonight recalls the saddest day
The day before this -
War
Blood filled clouds disguised
as just a mountain sunny -
Day
Maddened by a future posed
A storm of grief, the morn -
Forecast
One hundred winding miles I drove
To look deep her tender Buddhist -
Eyes
“If a thousand set ourselves
on fire”, I said, “they will not even -
Pause”
“ I know,” she said, broken, open
our hearts, our gaze, for eternity contained
agony of children screams, Oceans of the Future-
Dead
Chenae /10/28/07
Yeah Ms Chenae has a vast real life experiences because she was there caring for many needy people, as rightly said she has taken care of victims of rape, abuse, violence, death and dying etc... her 25 years of service to mankind must be deeply appreciated here in this peace column and I'm just a another follower of her since I also practice nursing and wanna reach to those who is in need of my service to alleviate pain and suffering from their life and possibly share peace with the death and dyings. Good luck Chenae for your future endeavours...
Chenae said:The Dalai Lama says that it is very important to not confuse the Action with the Actor.We most oppose wrong action but if we become overwhelmed with hatred for the Actor we act only in the short term and become paralyzed.
How to keep our eyes wide open, our hearts wide open, and not become overwhelmed with the very real horror that many of our fellow beings are living is the first question. Many turn away. How do we include those who would kill us? But the Table of Peace can not just include those with who we agree.
I recieved a letter on the first day I joined this site from a man in Gaza who h ad just been held at a check point for 4 hours.he asked what I had done today to end this terrible occupation. I had to tell him I had done no direct action.
My life is very difficult at the moment. But I try to ground each day in Gratitude. I do not frame my day around where I can find fresh water. Many in this world are risking rape and murder to just obtain water to live.
As a Registered Nurse for many years, I do know the first hand reality of senseless violent death and pain. I have been covered in blood. I have cared for tortured children. But a recent reminder of the limitations of my experience living in the US was when, on the Fourth of July, I heard and daw fireworks. I assumed they were fireworks, I did not react with the fear of those who live in places where such sounds mean death. Years ago, a Vietnamese friend of mine dove screaming, trying to protect her children at the same sounds.
We walk in many different worlds, but we are all connected. We must try not to strike at those who would be our allies. Guilt and shame will only cause people to close. I often want to run screaming in the street, sreaming for the dead and the dying. But that would only help release my personal pain and not help them.
Below I offer you a poem I wrote last year. It talks of despair, but I hope helps to connect us so we can all coninue, enlarged, to change this world.
Bless
Chenae
Iraq Forecast Recalled
Tonight recalls the saddest day
The day before this -
War
Blood filled clouds disguised
as just a mountain sunny -
Day
Maddened by a future posed
A storm of grief, the morn -
Forecast
One hundred winding miles I drove
To look deep her tender Buddhist -
Eyes
“If a thousand set ourselves
on fire”, I said, “they will not even -
Pause”
“ I know,” she said, broken, open
our hearts, our gaze, for eternity contained
agony of children screams, Oceans of the Future-
Dead
Chenae /10/28/07
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