First topic - one state Vs two states solution - iPeace.us2024-03-28T08:45:12Zhttps://ipeace.us/forum/topics/2217368:Topic:138654?groupUrl=middleeastfireside&commentId=2217368%3AComment%3A142170&groupId=2217368%3AGroup%3A132745&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThis discussion is closed now…tag:ipeace.us,2008-10-13:2217368:Comment:2370392008-10-13T04:52:23.503ZRoni Segolyhttps://ipeace.us/profile/RoniSegoly
This discussion is closed now, we are discussion (and you are invited to join) the topic for the next one.
This discussion is closed now, we are discussion (and you are invited to join) the topic for the next one. Thank you Yigal for the summa…tag:ipeace.us,2008-10-13:2217368:Comment:2370272008-10-13T04:51:33.123ZRoni Segolyhttps://ipeace.us/profile/RoniSegoly
Thank you Yigal for the summary, I will close the discussion and let's move to the next one.
Thank you Yigal for the summary, I will close the discussion and let's move to the next one. Hi Roni,
After reviewing this…tag:ipeace.us,2008-10-12:2217368:Comment:1991632008-10-12T06:31:52.353ZYigal D. Kahanahttps://ipeace.us/profile/YigalDKahana
Hi Roni,<br />
After reviewing this whole thread, this is how I'd summarize it.<br />
<br />
On the issue of a one-state vs. two-state outcome;<br />
<br />
1. It appears to be the more common sentiment that for practical reasons,<br />
a two-state structure will probably have to precede a one-state resolution.<br />
2. The two state boundary should be about where the 1967 lines settled.<br />
3. No discussion was had of Jerusalem at all.<br />
4. Those who support a one-state resolution believe there must be a Constitution supporting it, and that…
Hi Roni,<br />
After reviewing this whole thread, this is how I'd summarize it.<br />
<br />
On the issue of a one-state vs. two-state outcome;<br />
<br />
1. It appears to be the more common sentiment that for practical reasons,<br />
a two-state structure will probably have to precede a one-state resolution.<br />
2. The two state boundary should be about where the 1967 lines settled.<br />
3. No discussion was had of Jerusalem at all.<br />
4. Those who support a one-state resolution believe there must be a Constitution supporting it, and that it should resemble the US Constitution or UN Declaration of Human Rights in supporting individual freedoms.<br />
5. Rights inhere in the individual, not in groups.<br />
6. The question of how each side in a one-state resolution would preserve its unique character, must be looked into thoroughly. to generate a formula that would help coexistence to grow without diminishing anyone's identity.<br />
7. We need curriculum and organizational reform to get to any adequate resolution.<br />
8. The issue of how a two-state solution would operate - details like mobility between them, and minority rights in Palestine, were not really discussed.<br />
9. Rsources were discussed, but really only to say generally that they should be divided fairly under any resolution. Hi Roni,
If there is a cohere…tag:ipeace.us,2008-10-12:2217368:Comment:1986712008-10-12T05:58:55.240ZYigal D. Kahanahttps://ipeace.us/profile/YigalDKahana
Hi Roni,<br />
If there is a coherent group of Israelis who define 'post-Zionism' to mean more Zion and less Judaism, then their ideology should be called "post-Judaism" more than post-Zionism.<br />
You are right that this is an essential topic to be discussed on the Israeli/Jewish 'side'.<br />
It is crucial to Israel's will to community.
Hi Roni,<br />
If there is a coherent group of Israelis who define 'post-Zionism' to mean more Zion and less Judaism, then their ideology should be called "post-Judaism" more than post-Zionism.<br />
You are right that this is an essential topic to be discussed on the Israeli/Jewish 'side'.<br />
It is crucial to Israel's will to community. Yigal
You wrote "and as post…tag:ipeace.us,2008-10-12:2217368:Comment:1975842008-10-12T04:54:37.814ZRoni Segolyhttps://ipeace.us/profile/RoniSegoly
Yigal<br />
<br />
You wrote "and as post-Zionism implies an Israel or Jewish people no longer concerned with Zion" it is loaded term and everyone see and understand it differently, but for many post-Zionism is the opposite, more Zion and less Judaism, maybe that is one of the topics we need to discuss now here
Yigal<br />
<br />
You wrote "and as post-Zionism implies an Israel or Jewish people no longer concerned with Zion" it is loaded term and everyone see and understand it differently, but for many post-Zionism is the opposite, more Zion and less Judaism, maybe that is one of the topics we need to discuss now here Hi Wael,
As Roni mentioned on…tag:ipeace.us,2008-10-12:2217368:Comment:1971322008-10-12T04:22:22.755ZYigal D. Kahanahttps://ipeace.us/profile/YigalDKahana
Hi Wael,<br />
As Roni mentioned on October 5 (now that I see that), nobody has really laid out what would b the schemes for any kind of solution.<br />
In my exchanges with Chen I did lay out some of the necessary elements for a Federation to occur.<br />
Would you like for me to expand on that?<br />
And post it where?
Hi Wael,<br />
As Roni mentioned on October 5 (now that I see that), nobody has really laid out what would b the schemes for any kind of solution.<br />
In my exchanges with Chen I did lay out some of the necessary elements for a Federation to occur.<br />
Would you like for me to expand on that?<br />
And post it where? You're exactly right Myron,
I…tag:ipeace.us,2008-10-12:2217368:Comment:1970802008-10-12T04:18:42.604ZYigal D. Kahanahttps://ipeace.us/profile/YigalDKahana
You're exactly right Myron,<br />
Israel also needs curriculum reform. And not like Limor Livnat's, or Yuli Tamir's.<br />
More like Tony Roberts! A little self-appreciation maybe mixed in with the self-criticism.<br />
A lot better understanding of the significance of the Israelite traditions and people in shaping the modern, allegedly-Western civilization we live and blog in (and this website in in English!) today.<br />
There is a heck of a lot to be proud of.<br />
When I was in Israel last May, I met a roomful (15+) of…
You're exactly right Myron,<br />
Israel also needs curriculum reform. And not like Limor Livnat's, or Yuli Tamir's.<br />
More like Tony Roberts! A little self-appreciation maybe mixed in with the self-criticism.<br />
A lot better understanding of the significance of the Israelite traditions and people in shaping the modern, allegedly-Western civilization we live and blog in (and this website in in English!) today.<br />
There is a heck of a lot to be proud of.<br />
When I was in Israel last May, I met a roomful (15+) of Ethiopian Israeli yeshiva guys and dati (halachically observant) Rabbis. Some might say haredi, but whatever.<br />
Black kippot, white shirts, tzizit, all learning in some real yeshiva, and working jobs; everyone of them served in - golani, tzanchanim, golani, golani, tzanchanim, golani - like there were no other options!<br />
They love Israel; they have hakarat haTov (appreciation for the good), even with the very real problems they and their community still face.<br />
This is where everything is relative.<br />
One of the Darfurians I know was telling me about his daily issues living in Ashkelon,<br />
I asked him how they compared with what he had to deal with in Darfur.<br />
He laughed out loud, and said it was a joke. That was another world entirely.<br />
In that sense, he was very glad to be dealing with mundane problems and not life-threatening ones.<br />
<br />
I am personally frustrated by the extent to which there remain pockets of people in Israel who do not see what the majority at least intuits. Namely, that for Israel to be a place where everyone is treated decently - Darfurians fleeing from violence, Ethiopians who came to fulfil their dream of 2500 or so years, Arabs whose families were there for generations and who wanted to be part of this grand new experiment in society, haredis, seculars, and everyone else who really wants - would mean the realization of the Zionist ideal.<br />
Zion bamishpat Tipadeh, Vishaveha B'Tzedaka.<br />
'Zion with justice shall be redeemed, and those that resettle her with righteousness.' Dear all
I think most views…tag:ipeace.us,2008-10-12:2217368:Comment:1968812008-10-12T03:58:12.768ZRoni Segolyhttps://ipeace.us/profile/RoniSegoly
Dear all<br />
<br />
I think most views were expressed and we should think about closing and moving on.<br />
<br />
Any one care to summarize?
Dear all<br />
<br />
I think most views were expressed and we should think about closing and moving on.<br />
<br />
Any one care to summarize? Wael,
Is finding this crazy m…tag:ipeace.us,2008-10-12:2217368:Comment:1968132008-10-12T03:54:52.924ZYigal D. Kahanahttps://ipeace.us/profile/YigalDKahana
Wael,<br />
Is finding this crazy material your hobby or something?<br />
Also, it seems like this discussion is getting more interesting the further we stray farther from the topic!<br />
<br />
Anyway,I do agree with Chen that 'politics' is supposed to be value-neutral.<br />
It was in ancient Greek. Just usually isn't nowaday, but that just reminds me of a high school teacher I had who used to say, often, "The way it is, and the way it ought to be...".<br />
<br />
We're working on the way it ought to be. Which must be based on a…
Wael,<br />
Is finding this crazy material your hobby or something?<br />
Also, it seems like this discussion is getting more interesting the further we stray farther from the topic!<br />
<br />
Anyway,I do agree with Chen that 'politics' is supposed to be value-neutral.<br />
It was in ancient Greek. Just usually isn't nowaday, but that just reminds me of a high school teacher I had who used to say, often, "The way it is, and the way it ought to be...".<br />
<br />
We're working on the way it ought to be. Which must be based on a stable, and dynamically growing, platform of commons/truths and best-current practices.<br />
Have you given any thought to the filtering process, or criteria for the various levels as well as unique entities? Or to change as it occurs?<br />
<br />
You already know that I agree with you about the need to improve group cohesion and effectiveness by whole orders of magnitude, and not just small increments.<br />
So keep up the good work.<br />
You know, anything you want edited, just let me know. I appreciate this. It is inte…tag:ipeace.us,2008-10-11:2217368:Comment:1841042008-10-11T12:59:06.021Zchen yehezkelyhttps://ipeace.us/profile/chenyehezkely
I appreciate this. It is interesting to note, incidently, that all over the world - but here in Israel especially - people use the word "politics" to denote the exact opposite of politics, like in the expression "political nomination" in which "political" means sectarian or even personal...<br />
sincerely<br />
Chen
I appreciate this. It is interesting to note, incidently, that all over the world - but here in Israel especially - people use the word "politics" to denote the exact opposite of politics, like in the expression "political nomination" in which "political" means sectarian or even personal...<br />
sincerely<br />
Chen