Short introduction to the topic by Mazin:
All observers know that there has been significant changes in the political, cultural and economic landscape that are forcing a reexamination of assumptions about peaceful outcomes. For example, there are now 500,000 Israeli Jewish settlers in the areas Israel occupied in 1967. Those areas represent about 20% of historic Palestine and these are the same areas envisioned to be the future Palestinian state. There is thus a revival of the consideration of a one state outcome (whether a binational state, a confederation, or a secular democratic state for all its people). The forum is interested in a respectful discussion of the merits of these outcomes (some may call solutions but others disagree with the terminology which implies that there visions are mere solutions to manufactured problems). We urge you to focus discussion on just and peaceful outcomes and we will remove postings which suggest perpetual conflicts as inevitable or that denigrade religions or ethnicities. In your comments please focus on the issues (which are political) and not the persons and try to understand different perspectives. You may start by referring to these questions or as you like, please be aware to group guidelines and help us maintain productive and dignified discussion.
Why do you think people can or can't exist in a unitary state of all people regardless of their religion? What do you think is the biggest obstacle to getting people to recognize the inherent dignity and equality of all other people?
contact yourself in Alternative Information Center Site with "To the attention to Michel Warshawski" (he doesn't use a lot the internet...). And tell him in the message that Vincent Mespoulet from Manosque/forcalquier AFPS (Association France Palestine Solidarité), France have suggested to join here...
OK, as you see on main page of group I have RSS feed with relevant links and external data, send me what you can and it will be added there for people to read, better not to paste into the thread itself as it gets lost
Jewish culture has thrived for centuries without a jewish state. it seems to me that much of Jewish culture has degenerated within the Jewish State into a primitive, hateful violence and racism. We have much less "honor" as Jews in our State then we used to as a minority in other countries. Our values have degenerated as well as our culture.
It seems that you have no belief in the creation of a bi-national democracy. As if we Jews are inherently democratic and the Palestinians are inherently fanatic fundamentalists. I don't agree. So much depends on education and conditions of life. Under the present occupation it's a wonder there are so many peace seeking Palestinians. I can't help but wonder what this place would be like if all the money spent on maintaining the occupation, building walls and settlements would be invested in excellent education and economic developement. Chances are we would see many more peace seeking Palestinians. At this point what we see are vast mechanisms for the maintenance of fear and hatred--on both sides. If all the resources used to maintain these would be forwarded to the opposite, we may be able to enjoy a different, happier reality.
Democracy does not really exist in Israel of today, not for those who are not Jewish. I would rather teach my children that democracy, equality and respect are Jewish values. I feel this is more important than the celebration of holidays or whatever. Not that Jewish custom, language, history, etc. would have to be earsed in a more equalitarian society.
It seems such a waste and pity to invest all our resources and culture in fighting a real estate war whose purpose seems to be to be rid of the Palestinians and the confiscation of their land. This kind of war is ruining us as human beings and destroying our culture.
When I read messages like yours I am reinforced in hope. I am more hopeful everyday because the idiocies of wars and fighting over resources (which diminishes resources to all) is becoming more and more apparent to more and more people around the world. There is that old saying "what if they gave a war and no one shows up". Those who lived by the sword may end up not dying by the sword but being far too lonely in the future. It drives them crazy to see people of various backgrounds not only refuse to be enemies but collaborate and even intermarry! We had a group in Connecticut when I lived in the US called "we Refuse to Be Enemies". It was the best of times. I am trying to find and join groups like this here in Palestine (or recreate one). The comments on ipeace suggests we at least have that in virtual space. Maybe we need to do it also on the ground. I would love to host a meeting in the Bethlehem area for those interested.
انا من راي انه اذا تم طرح (حل) الدوله الواحد ثنائيه القوميه فيجب الاخذ بااعتبار ان التوزيع الديموغرافي للشعبين يحتم تقسيم للموارد الطبيعيه ايضا !!
حل دوله واحده يحب ان يتضمن توزيع عادل للثروات الطبيعيه دون النظر الي الدين او العرق وهذا ما اظن انه صعب الحدوث ما دامت العقليات المترئسه للسلطه في كلى الجانبين تتمسك بالقوميه.والدين
انا من راي ان ننظر الى الامام والعمل بجديه لرفع الظلم الحاصل على الارض قبل البحث في امور الحل الدائم !
واهم هذه الامور التي يجب بحثها الجدار العازل الذي يعتبر اكبر تهديد للسلام في المنطقه
Remember, this is only an academic discussion.
Yes, it is critically important to work on improving small things 'on the ground."
Still, there is a place for discussing bigger ideas as well.
Regarding the distribution of resources, you are making a valid point, but is it really in context?
After all, the alternative is not utopia. The alternative is a two-state setup which will just create even more distribution-imbalances and redundant political/economic bottlenecks.
The only way I see to get rid of that wall is under a Federal solution.
Under any two-state arrangement likely to be implemented in the foreseeable future,
that wall will become a permanent border.
You can't want that!
I agree with you Rafat but I think allocating natural resources fairly is much more problematic in a "state and a half" (as the two state is envisioned) than in a one state solution where needs of people are addressed regardless of their religion. I also agree that we need to work on alleviating the injustice today (e.g. land confiscation, checkpoints, ghettos etc) but I think envisioning a better future makes such work far easier not harder. But I agree we cannot put that work off while discussing future visions.
Let my response here to be the first one in Arabic and I will translate it later.
In my opinion if the solution of a one bi-national state was suggested, it should be taken into consideration that the demographic distribution for the two peoples necessitate a division for the natural resources too!!
The one state solution must include a fair distribution for the natural resources without looking to religion or race and that I think this is hard to happen as long as the mentalities in leadership positions in both sides authorities are holding the ideas of nationality and religion.
In my opinion we should look forward and work seriously to stop the oppression that we see on the ground before discussing the lasting solution issue! And the most important thing of the issues that must be discussed is the separation wall which is considered a great threat to the peace in the area.