Israel is using a disproportionate force against Gazan civilians. After living under an Israeli siege for 18 months that deprived Gazans of basic necessities, Hamas fired homemade missiles and Israel responds by MASS PUNISHING Palestinians with F-16 raids. So far roughly 1400 Palestinians were brutaly murdered in 24 days, including 417 children & 108 women, 5340 injured.... whereas only 4 Israelis have died.
Palestinian kida can`t live normaly...For what? What it takes to live as all the world kids ?
I think they can`t because isreal want bigger place for his crime
Because they don`t leave thier country
Because they choosed honor
Because isreal wants allways to take from palestinians and never give them any thing.
Israel has done everything in its power to earn such a violent, disrespectful reputation worldwide. Right now, many Israelis are fighting back, side by side with other Palestinians who have nothing to do with any political party, which many visibly criticize. Now other Israelis have no real excuse to dismiss them, but most still ignore and abuse anyone who dares to speak out against the violence.
For decades Israeli PR has been trying to sell everyone and all the people around the world the idea that Israel has higher moral standards, that they’re fighting merely for their existence, that they’re the only “democracy” in the region when none are factually true.
Eye`s see whats going on on gaza and west bank for 60 years,
Ear`s hear the screem of the babies , womens and others
While the world looked elsewhere another week of DEATH ,SUFFERING AND MISERY
The exposure of Israel's 60 year long inhumain tactics toward Palestinian people certainly is not good PR for Israel. I am stunned that the powers that be in Israel don't realize that the world can only ignore so much and for so long. Arabs are people too just as black African slaves were people too just as the Jews in Nazi concentration camps were people too. Wrong is wrong.
Here is how I heard this situation simplified by an American who recently did research on the Israeli, Palestinian conflict..."It is like this. One day someone knocks on your door. You open the door to find it is another family with the government standing behind therm telling you that you must move into your fenced in backyard so this family can move into your house. You and your family will now have to survive in this fenced in back yard while this newly immigrated family lives in your family home in front of your eyes. You can do nothing because if you do you will be killed or imprisoned in a concrete cell and possibly tortured. This government may allow some goods to funnel through to you in this fenced in back yard but it is always at their disretion whether you agree or not."
I liked this scenario.... Nobody in this world, no human being would be able to endure this for long without being consumed with anger and resent. Then, things get even worse..... The victim is called the terrorist, etc...........more anger, more resent,..........a rebellion ensues.......
Try looking into this website... IfAmericansKnew.org
Also read Jimmy Carter's book .....Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid
Try reading Illan Pappe's book .......The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
Go to www.palestineremembered.com .....
Myron, why do you bother? Can't you see you have no-One to talk to here? You need not try to talk to people like Tatiana. Not even to Roro. Talk to Roro's husband. With him you might get something going. At least you can be sure that he understands what you are talking about.
Besides, you said that you were leaving this thread. Tatiana is bored and has nothing better to do than to write 'megilot'. She can keep you here forever :)
OK I have read most of the 12 pages of this thread and am astonished at the level of hatred against Jews in this network. I should have gotten the first clue from the title. CONDEMN the Israeli Attacks on Gaza and West Bank. In this I have found very few people defending Israel, Jews and or Zionists. No where in teh 12 pages have I seen a condemnation of the rocket attacks for the last 3 years including during the ceasefire. No where have I read about condemning Hamas for using schools, hospitals, and places of worship as shields against the Israeli attack. No where have I read about the condemnation of the illegal kidnapping and torture of Gilad Shalit. No where have I read a condemnation of Hamas using women and children as shields to protect the "freedom fighters" of Hamas and Hezbollah.
Sam Sam talks about a disproportionate response from Israel against Hamas? Where was Sam when S'derot was being shelled for the last 3 years? Where was Sam Sam calling for peace and harmony when Sharon unilaterally pulled out of Gaza? If any country in the world had suffered the nonstop shelling of a city by an elected government that country would demolish that enemy and no one would care. If La Raza bombed San Diego for 2 hours let alone 3 years the US would destroy Mexico, and not a single member of La Raza would be left alive and no one would say anything about it.
19 extremist Muslims hijacked 4 planes destroying three buildings and killing over 3000 people and the US went into 2 wars trying to destroy terrorism. The UN does not condemn the US. Millions of people have been killed and enslaved in Darfur, and no one condemns it. Why do we condemn Israel for defending herself from a bunch of thugs.
Sam Sam you numbers of dead and wounded are exagerated, it has been reported in several places that the hospitals of Gaza and the West bank are almost empty. The morgues are empty. If there was as much death and mayhem as you claim there would not be an open bed in any hospital in Gaza.
SamSam and the rest of you who condemn Israel and the IDF for defending itself I have a statement and a question. I believe that there should be an independent state of Palestine west of the Jordan river in Gaza and the West Bank. Can you say that you believe that there should be a State of Israel west of the Jordan river within the green line with Jerusalem as its capital? Israel has put into writing that the Palestinians should have self determination in peace in their own state. What is in the Hamas and Fatah charters? I will tell you. They both call for hte destruction of ISrael and the death of world Jewry. Zionism is Judaism. You cannot hide behind the word zionist and claim you are not antisemitic. Zionism is the desire for the Jews to have a homeland in the holyland. That has been the dream of the Jew since we left Egypt 3300 years ago. Every Jew that lives in Israel is a zionist. They are living the dream of zionism. What I see in this thread is a whole bunch of antisemitism, and hatrd from everything Jewish.
I believe in peace. I believe in 2 states living side by side in unison with each other. What do you believe? Lets start with an easy question. Do you believe Israel should be a state in the holy land? Once we can establish this then we can establish peace.
I did not justify the war. I justified the Israeli response to the war. Israel did not start it. They did stop it. Israel responded to a war started by Hamas. Why is it so hard for you to place the blame where it belongs?
Let me ask this question of you then I will get to the rest of your post. If I were to come over to your house everyday and beat up members of your family what would you do? Let me just continue to beat them up? Or would you do what you could to stop me from beating up your family? This is what Israel has done. They did what they could to stop the attack from Gaza, and the Palestinians which live in Gaza. No where do you recognize the fact that Israel did not start this. Israel has done everything to bring peace into the region and what has been the response from the Palestinians? Terror and rocket attacks.
No where in this rant of yours did you say that YES Israel has the right to exist where it is. You focused on my calling you hate filled and anti-Semitic. I wonder why that is. The Irish have Ireland, The English have England, the Catholics and Italians have Italy the Germans and Lutherans have Germany I could go on there are 158 or so nations on this planet, why do you refuse to acknowledge Israel the right to have one as well?
In the beginning of your post you called Jews a religion compared to Catholicism, by the end you were calling us a race of people. Being Jewish is a lifestyle, it is a race, it is a religion, it is a nationality it is a society. Zionism is a political belief found within Judaism and Christianity. Being Jewish is like being part of a family. It may be understandable for you to not understand. It does not matter if we agree on things or not (most of the time it is not) it does not matter were in the world we are from. First and foremost we are Jews. We are a people, that has our own distinct language, art, literature, religion, and laws. We are a nation-state, between 70 and 1948 CE a nation-state without a nation. Now we have our state again right where it was before. and by what I can tell you are not happy about it. The religion does not always pass down from generation to generation, but being Jewish always passes down.
So we will try this again because you did not address it the first time. You were to busy hiding your antisemitism. I believe in peace. I believe in 2 states living side by side in unison with each other. What do you believe? Lets start with an easy question. Do you believe Israel should be a state in the holy land? Once we can establish this then we can establish peace.
I am not looking to get into a debate with you either. A discussion about peace is a good goal. A true and just peace. A peace that is fair and ethical between the two parties. I am not sure what you are interested in you have not stated, instead you have attacked me personally by calling me a bully and suggesting that there spittle dropping from your mouth as you typed. I contend that in order to start the discussion on peace in the middle east there has to be an agreement on the existence of a state of Palestine and a state of Israel. I believe that there should be. You refuse to address this. If pointing out your avoidance of accepting Israel is being a Bully I am sorry, but I think we cannot have an honest discussion on peace in the middle east until both sides are honest about their desire for an Israeli state. I agree that every person should have a safe place to live but that could mean that the Palestinians should ive in Egypt, Jordan or any other Arab Country, but I go further and say that the Palestinians should have their own state, called Palestine. In your silence I can only assume you do not want a state of Israel to exist, because the Jews can live safely anywhere.
A peacemaker works for honesty, this is something that I do. Are you unable to say yes Israel should exist west of the Jordan river?
Thank you Rauch I am sure that was hard for you to do. I do not look to be placated. What I look for is honesty in dialogue. I look for people to say what they mean and mean what they say. You will not find me saying anything that I do not mean. I wish you to do the same, but with honesty. We cannot discuss peace unless we can start on the same page. That page being the existence of Israel and Palestine. Has Israel done some reprehensible things? Yes they have. Has Palestine done some things that are also reprehensible? Yes they have. Once both sides can agree that both sides has done evil to the other then we can move on. Are you with me so far?
You said you are no longer going to follow this thread but I will answer you anyway.
I am a professor so yes I am used to people listening to what I have to say. I have a t-shirt that says if I am talking you should be taking notes. Yes my confidence can be confused for arrogance and I am sorry if you think I am arrogant. I try not to be. Before that I worked in the criminal justice field, a probation officer, a prison guard and a cop. Before that I was in the special forces of the U.S. Military were I worked in counter-terrorism. I am not a bully but I expect my students and those around me to say what they mean and not make me try to read their mind and translate what they mean. In return I speak what I mean. I am sorry if you find this bullish, and forceful. That may be why I get banned from so many sites. People do not really what to hear truth, and honesty, they want to be placated and have their egos stroked and their "victimhood" coddled. Because it is easier to say "yes Israel is evil in attacking the Palestinians, and that the response was unprovoked." No one wants to come off sounding like they are a racist against the Palestinians. We can rationalize our hatred for the Jews by focusing on the Zionist. Sometimes honesty hurts, and truthfulness is rarely flattering. I would rather a person tell me the truth than placate me and tell me what I want to hear. Like you did earlier. Earlier you stated that you would placate me and tell me that you believed in the State of Israel and its right to exist. Now were you being honest and truthful or were you just saying that to make me happy? I had to force you to say that, prior to that you would only admit that Jews had a right to live in safety.
As a criminologist I make assumptions based on the evidence put before me. Have I been wrong in my assumptions? Yes I have been wrong a couple of times but normally and a majority of the time my assumptions are correct. Rarely am I ever completely wrong in my assumptions.
Yes I agree violence is not the answer to the problem in the middle east. I believe that Israel understands this, that is why they declared a unilateral cease-fire last week. How was that cessation of hostilities answered by Hamas? With more rocket attacks. I can guarantee you this right here and right now. If the rocket attacks stop and the suicide bombers stop then there will be no more attacks from Israel and peace will be found...
I am a jew participating in this conversation and do not feel hated, just sometimes misunderstood or getting different opinions (which I always respect, and sometimes disagree).
I don't think it is fair to judge SamSam from where you or I stand, his life are not easy. Even if he is against the bombing of civilians in Sderot, that does not mean he is willing to risk his life (he is not living in a democracy you know) to make his opinion heard - SamSam, hope you are OK with me speaking in your behalf :o)
I do agree with you that what Israel is doing to protect itself is a must (I'm not trying to justify any of it and understand why many think this is wrong, I would feel the same seeing it if I wasn't living here in Israel, they are too disturbing).
The numbers, sadly, are pretty accurate and verified by Israely and Palestinian orginizations (not that it matter, even half the amount is still lots of people hurt, and as Roro stated - they are human beings too), not sure why you say that - if you have other sources, please share them with us,
I think Fatah charters are changed from their original form, regarding Hamas you right.
Zionism is not Judaism, you are welcome to read more in the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
Do not misunderstand me - zionism is to me the most important Jewish political movement that came to be after many years of Antisemism! And I totally support that (Tatiana, after some of your remarks about Zionists, maybe you want to read as well).
And one last thing: "I have found very few people defending Israel, Jews and or Zionists" - I as an Israeli am here to listen, hoping to understand and share my perspective of the situation - I've learned there is no right or wrong in the situation - many mistake were made by both sides. I don't feel like I need defending, I just expect people to hear and respect my thoughts as they respect others'.
So, I appreciate your thoughts and ideas and thanks for stating them, note that you present your thoughts like they are facts ... No worries, many others do this, you can feel like your are home LOL
maybe you will like me less if I say I have read and listened to Chomsky's opinions, and I don't really like the guy. He is a great critic, but criticising is easy - he never gives an alternative (his general alternative is interesting, but very far fetched, kind of anarchy that may happen in another 3000 years or so LOL).
He also gives very generalized statements that are not very accurate etc.
I can agree to some of his statements, but as we can see in all discussions here, when we get into details it is much more grey than his black and white statements. So all I get from him is criticism, and very one sided.
You are right in that the life of SamSam and many other Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have a rough life and a life. Yet the rough life of the Palestinians is not totally the fault of Israel, Israeli's or the IDF.
The loss of one life unnecessarily is a tragedy that should be avoid at all cost. Yet the numbers given by Hamas is inaccurate and lrgely exagerated. On Thursday, Cremonesi published an article in the Italian paper Corriere della Sera, in which he claimed that the Palestinians had distorted their claims, much like in past incidents. He quoted a doctor at Gaza City's main Shifa Hospital who said no more than 500 or 600 could have been killed in the IDF attacks, and that most were men between 17 and 23 recruited to Hamas's ranks. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292939271&pagena... http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129569
It has been shown that this is a common thread
Fatah has not changed their charter either
Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated. http://www.mideastweb.org/fateh.htm
I guess I did not clearly state my opinion on Judaism and Zionism. Zionism is a political philosophy that I believe to be part of Judaism and our desire for a homeland since we left Egypt so many years ago. Yes there are many Jews who are not Zionists, but I do not know many religious Jews who are not Zionists.
I am a professor of Criminal Justice and present many things as fact. I study and research and make informed comments based on fact as I know them.
Every war has civilian casualties. It is one of the tragic elements of violent conflict. Sadly, the war in Gaza was no different and innocent lives were lost and should be mourned. It is still necessary, however, to separate fact from fiction about the casualties of war and ensure that scurrilous accusations about the behavior of the Israeli Defense Forces do not go unchallenged.
History has shown that Israeli soldiers are routinely smeared by officials from human rights organizations, the UN and propagandists in the Arab world and beyond. To cite just a few examples, in the first Lebanon war, Israel was accused of killing 10,000 Lebanese and leaving 600,000 homeless. Later, it was learned the figures were inventions of Yasser Arafat’s brother, Fathi, who headed the Palestine Red Crescent. In 2002, Israel was charged with killing 500 people in the Jenin “massacre.” It was a lie. A total of 56 people died, 34 were terrorists. In the second Lebanon war, the Lebanese Prime Minister claimed another “massacre,” but instead of 40 dead as he claimed, only one person had died.
In Gaza, we are told that 1,300 Palestinians died, most civilians. What is the source for these statistics?
The principal source appears to be Palestinian health officials who are all employed by Hamas. Given that Hamas killed Palestinians who crossed the organization during the fighting and have been exacting more revenge since the cease-fire, how likely is it that any of these officials will provide accurate information? Since it is in the interest of Hamas to minimize the number of casualties among its troops and maximize the number of civilians, is it surprising that Palestinians claim fewer than 100 terrorists were killed?
Usually journalists seek two sources to verify information, but in this case, most were satisfied with one that was unreliable and likely biased. At the least, the media could have presented the figures as unverifiable claims.
What about the UN sources? They have their own bias from years of working for the benefit of the Palestinians, cooperating with Hamas and apologizing for terror against Jews. Moreover, since UN officials were unlikely to have gone around Gaza counting bodies, they likely relied on the same tainted Palestinian sources.
Meanwhile, how do we know how many of the casualties were terrorists and how many were not? We know that Hamas ordered the fighters to take off their uniforms and try to blend in with the civilian population. We know they hid in private homes. If a dead man is found, is it clear that he is not a terrorist? What incentive do Palestinian officials have for reporting that he is?
What about women and children? Obviously, they were innocent victims. Unfortunately, because of Hamas’s cynical use of women and children as rocket crews, ammunition carriers and human bombs, even small numbers of these normally innocent groups of people may very well have been combatants.
It is also not clear how civilians died. According to the Palestinians, Israel murdered them all. But how many died from Hamas rockets that fell short? We know of at least two Palestinian children killed that way. How many died when booby-traps set for Israeli troops went off in rooms full of Palestinians trapped there by Hamas? How many were killed by secondary explosions when arms caches hit by Israeli forces exploded? How many died because they were in the vicinity of rocket crews that drew Israeli fire? The truth is the people reporting casualty figures have made no effort to determine the cause of death because that would limit the propaganda value of the dead.
A deeper philosophical question is whether Palestinians who did nothing to prevent the Hamas attacks are “innocent.”
According to the IDF, 700 of the dead were terrorists, mostly from Hamas, and 250 were civilians. Another 200 people are still unaccounted for. If these figures are accurate, then the majority of the casualties were indeed terrorists. Israel, of course, has its own bias, but it also has a record of integrity and, unlike the Palestinian Authority, is an open democracy that allows its claims to be checked independently.
Every individual should be mourned whatever the true number of casualties. So long as Hamas uses its children as shields, as rocket crews and as suicide bombers, however, Israel can do nothing to achieve peace with the Palestinians.
Golda Meir’s observation remains as true today as when she said it more than half a century ago: “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”