Marvin Vining said…

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ali Afifi on November 19, 2008 at 1:26am

My dear friend Marvin,
Islam decided that human nature is good and without any sin. Adam committed a sin like any one of us commit a sin and ask the God to forgive him and the God forgives us as He forgave Adam. We are born without any sin.

All the verses in the Quran gave the Muslim 2 choices when he was transgressed. Either to take his rights by law (equality) or forgive this one who hurt him and to forgive, is better than to take his rights by law.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was the law of God in Judaism and it was correct at this time and we must not blame the God to say that at that time because the life at that time of Moses needed that law.

Islam put another law for that. Islam put either financial substitution or forgiveness and made the forgiveness is better than to take the money. But in case of murder, we have 3 choices; either killing the killer or the other previous 2 choices according to what the relatives of the murdered want. Quran said

(189) And fight in the Way of Allâh[] those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors.

Permalink Reply by Ali Afifi on November 19, 2008 at 2:47am

only the governor can do it and by using the sword. The Court is one who decide how much of a financial compensation would suffice for any particular transgression. The Islamic court is like your courts having lawyers for both the transgressed and the the transgressor. Do not look to what happened in Afghanistan because it does not express the Islamic laws from near or far.

Permalink Reply by Marvin Vining on November 19, 2008 at 5:02am

Dear Ali,

Thank you for responding. Please pardon me if I seem pedantic, but I want to get a clearer understanding of the Muslim view of human nature.

When you say, "Adam committed a sin like any one of us commit a sin" are you saying, basically, that you think the story of Adam is an instructive myth?

If so, this seems a lot like the Jewish view: the temptation to sin is due more to the forces of history than human nature.

The great Jewish scholar Martin Buber once wrote:

Man always begins again and again as God’s creature, although henceforth under the burden of a humanity cast out from Paradise into the world and history. . . . That he sins belongs to his condition, that he turns back belongs to his holding his own in it. He sins as Adam sinned and not because Adam sinned.

Two Types of Faith, 158.

Do you think this view of human nature is shared by all the major branches of Islam -- the Suni, Shi'a, Kharijitite and Sufi?

Thanks again, my dear friend. I'll have more follow up questions to come.

Marvin

Permalink Reply by Ali Afifi on November 19, 2008 at 8:32am

Dear Marvin,
I will be happy for any question whatever this question will be and I will never be offended with any question.

Quran said
(12) And We have fastened every man's deeds[] to his neck, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall bring out for him a book which he will find wide open. (13) (It will be said to him): "Read your book. You yourself are sufficient as a reckoner against you this Day." (14) Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning). (15) (17-Al-Isra)

So, the sayings of The great Jewish scholar Martin Buber is correct
We sin as Adam sinned and not because Adam sinned. The story of Adam is correct and present in all faiths.

The major branches of Islam agreed in the main basics like this issue

God also said in Quran
By the sun and its brightness; (1) By the moon as it follows it (the sun); (2) By the day as it shows up (the sun's) brightness; (3) By the night as it conceals it (the sun); (4) By the heaven and Him Who built it; (5) By the earth and Him Who spread it, (6) And by a soul, and Him Who perfected him in proportion; (7) Then He showed him what is wrong for him and what is right for him; (8) Indeed he succeeds who purifies his ownself (i.e. obeys and performs all that God ordered, and by doing righteous good deeds). (9) And indeed he fails who corrupts his ownself (i.e. disobeys what Allâh has ordered by rejecting the true Faith of Monotheism or by following polytheism or by doing every kind of evil wicked deeds) (10) (91-Ash-Shams)

Permalink Reply by Marvin Vining on November 20, 2008 at 10:14am

This is a very good dialogue we are having, my friend. I hope you and the iPeace administrators will leave this discussion posted for a log time to come, so I can come back later and record all the helpful Surahs for my work.

This doctrinal point we've established in both Islam and Judaism that human nature is basically good is an extremely important one. Orthodox Christianity struggles greatly with this doctrine, which is why most Christian are unable to follow Jesus's teachings on nonviolence.

Martin Luther King, Jr., one of the most faithful Christian practitioners of nonviolence who has ever lived, taught that the philosophy of nonviolence has six basic elements:

First, nonviolence is resistance to evil and oppression. It is a human way to fight.

Second, it does not seek to defeat or humiliate the opponent, but to win his/ her friendship and understanding.

Third, the nonviolent method is an attack on the forces of evil rather than against persons doing the evil. It seeks to defeat the evil and not the persons doing the evil and injustice.

Fourth, it is the willingness to accept suffering without retaliation.

Fifth, a nonviolent resister avoids both external physical and internal spiritual violence- not only refuses to shoot, but also to hate, an opponent. The ethic of real love is at the center of nonviolence.

Sixth, the believer in nonviolence has a deep faith in the future and the forces in the universe are seen to be on the side of justice.

It is practically impossible to accept and apply these element if one believes human nature is inherently evil. If people are basically good, then the harm they do is due to ignorance -- just as the ancient philosopher Socrates taught. Once one understands and accepts this basic truth, it is far easier to forgive one's trespassers.

This is how Jesus himself found the power to forgive. Jesus said of his oppressors as he was dying on the cross:

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

Another way that mainstream Christians delude themselves into not following Jesus's perfect example of nonviolence is by ascribing to him a divine nature that no other human can possibly possess. This is a complex and deeply rooted doctrinal error, but Jesus denounced this error in a few key verses.

Jesus said:

“Therefore, be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). (Jesus's command that we be perfect implies that perfection is within our capability.)

"A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher” (Luke 6:40) (Jesus expected his disciples to follow fully all his teachings and become as he was.)

“You are gods, all of you, sons of the Most High” (John 10:34). (Jesus was quoting Psalms 82:6 from the Hebrew Bible to prove we all have a divine nature.)

We've still many more ideas to explore. But from our investigation so far it seems to me that Islam offers very fertile ground for teaching nonviolence, in many ways better than orthodox Christianity. Unlike orthodox Christianity, Islam doesn't appear to struggle with the doctrine of original sin or the doctrine of the Incarnation, which sometimes breaks down into idolatry.

Assalaamu 'Aleykum

Permalink Reply by Marvin Vining on November 20, 2008 at 8:55pm

Dear Ali,

To continue: I note that Gnostic Tom posted some Surahs about forgiveness. Two Surahs that I'm especially interested in are as follows.

AL MA’IDAH 5.45 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

AL SHURA 42.40 The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loveth not those who do wrong.

From these Surahs, it appears that the Qur'an teaches one's sin is atoned by forgiving those who sin against us.

Judaism appears to differ on this point, but only very slightly. The Mishna teaches that one's sin remains until we we are reconciled to the one we have wronged. We cannot otherwise work or meditate our sins away. There is however believed to be a universal Day of Atonement in which we will all forgive one another's sins so that we may re-enter Paradise.

Though unfortunately this teaching is ignored by most Christians, Jesus taught that our sins are forgiven in exact proportion to the forgiveness we give those who wrong us. If we love and forgive universally -- if we love God with all our heart, soul and mind and love our neighbor as ourself -- then all our sins are forgiven. Jesus said, "Do this and you will live" (Luke 10:28).

Note carefully the Lord’s Prayer:

“And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matthew 6:12).

Note also this key passage:

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back” (Luke 6:37-38).

And also this passage:

“Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your sins. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins” (Mark 11:24-26).

My question is: are there other Surahs in the Qur'an that parallel these teachings of Jesus? If so, I believe the Qur'an encourages us to love our enemies and to accept suffering without retaliation -- two of the most important elements of nonviolent philosophy that I outlined above.

Assalaamu 'Aleykum

Permalink Reply by Ali Afifi on November 20, 2008 at 11:29pm

Dear Marvin,

God says in the Holy Quran what means "Say ye: we believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to God (in Islam)."

We understand from these Holy verses that :
A Muslim can't be a true believer unless he believed in all the prophets and their Holy Books and his belief is not complete if he doesn't believe in them.

All the verses of Torah and Bible that are coincident with Quran verses, we consider them are also verses for us because we know exactly that these verses are from the God and God does not contradict himself.

God says what means in the Holy Quran what means" Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is best aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.( Al-Nahl :125)

God says what means in the Holy Quran what means " let there be no compulsion in religion "

And let not the hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety.... (Quran, 5:8)

The Prophet Muhammad said: {People, beware of injustice, for injustice shall be darkness on the Day of Judgment.

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

Prophet Muhammad forbade harming non-Muslims and asked Muslims to treat them well. He once said, He who harms a Jew or a Christian will find me his opponent on the Day of Judgment.

Prophet Mohumed says " Whoever kills a person who has a truce with the Muslims will never smell the fragrance of Paradise." (Saheeh Muslim)

And also says "Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment." (Abu Dawud)

[Behold, We have revealed to you (O Muhammad) as We revealed to Noah and all the prophets after him] (Al-Nisaa’ 4:163).
The Qur’an confirms God’s revelation to previous prophets that [If anyone slays a human being, unless it be (punishment) for murder, or for spreading mischief on earth, it shall be as though he had slain all humankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all humankind] (Al-Ma’idah 5:32).

[Indeed, We (God) have conferred dignity on the children of Adam] (Al-Israa’ 17:70). It is noted that this verse is inclusive of all humans, irrespective of their religion or even their belief in God.

[O you who believe! Stand out for justice, as witnesses to Allah, and even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:134)

[O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety and fear Allah, for Allah is well acquainted with all that you do.] (Al-Ma’idah 5:8)
[O humankind! We (Allah) have created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Verily, the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous (or Allah-conscious) of you. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.] (Al-Hujurat 49:13)

Lastly, I collected the verses of forgiveness in Quran and found them about 73 verses and I chose this one to u
(13) Say (O Muhammad SAW) to the believers to forgive those who (harm them and) hope not for the Days of Allâh (i.e. His Recompense), that He may recompense people according to what they have earned (i.e. to punish these disbelievers, who harm the believers).[] (14) Whosoever does a good deed, it is for his ownself, and whosoever does evil, it is against (his ownself). Then to your Lord you will be made to return. (15) (45-Al-Jathiya)

Permalink Reply by Marvin Vining on November 21, 2008 at 6:30am

Thank you, Ali. This has been a very productive dialogue. I hope we do it again.